I wish my wife would buy guns the way she does purses. 1) Avoid tangling with the criminal element whenever possible. I haven’t once open carried since and the reason for that is based on my own personal experience. * boycotts A few publicized cases out of thousands, tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of instances of OC is not really “problems with cops.”. They were attracting attention and support, but they weren’t creating fear among those with power. That has to feel good right? “As the Heller decision determined, a ban on carry outside the home is a de facto ban on guns and thus unconstitutional. How about when walking the dog on a pleasant evening? Guns and underwear are taboo subjects to speak of. In that case, your get a level of herd immunity, as a potential criminal cannot tell who is and isn’t armed. That’s why tiresome debates on OC vs CC are pointless. Before sharing sensitive information, make sure you’re on a federal government site. Brandon in his pro-CC article was (perhaps suspiciously) careful to make the point that his preference for CC was a purely personal choice, and that he is kind of OK with OC. Firearms must be unloaded and locked in a hard-sided container and transported as checked baggage only. She gets media attention. Ask your airline about limitations or fees that may apply. As for open carry, I only want to do it around her b/c I would rather enjoy her throwing a temper tantrum when she can’t get her way. So, yeah, while you might belief yourself high and mighty for not wanting to bother other people, it could well be argued that at the end of the day you are enabling harm to them by allowing them to continue living the delusions created by an irrational belief system. It does not lead to the conclusion that therefore we should not have OC. 2. Agree, but the article makes a good point “The best way to avoid a fight is to look like you can win one.” I’m 6’4″ and 230 pounds with 10% body fat because I work out a lot and I look big and strong. Life circumstances makes me operate more on the Never OC way of doing things. Across the US open carriers have already won, and are regularly winning more and more real victories on multiple levels. Only once in my life did I even consider owning and carrying a gun or firearm. So would increasing the number of OCers in society have the same effect? In the cities and towns, “flashing” will provoke a police response but will not be grounds for an arrest. The biggest obstacle after that is the “OMG, everyone will notice me!” concern that dissipates rather quickly when you finally do OC and discover how many people don’t notice, don’t care or actually approve of you carrying. To be clear, many of the adults in every one of those states have firearms, perhaps a majority of adults have them in most states. Oooooooo…, I can’t be “wrong” on any of my points, because I stated them as my beliefs. It’s less the individual thing and more a collective herd effect. Your argument for concealed carry typically hinges on the assumption that you will be a bystander and not the intended target, thus relying on the element of surprise rather than preparing for being surprised yourself. If you lived in NY or CA and couldn’t get a carry license, would you describe yourself as a whiny, selfish child because you couldn’t do whatever you want? In their view, more permissive gun laws allowing open-carry and concealed-carry firearms or arming teachers with guns in schools is therefore the sensible path. (Carry AirSoft guns on such occasions if really squeamish.) I will count on there being CCers around if that situation ever happens to me in public. As a LEO it is your job to engage with people who are less than honorable. Sometimes, they even get over their fears and become interested… sometimes. LICENSED open carry. always out for #1, If you make a try for my open carry gun, you most certainly meet the criteria of an armed criminal threatening my life, in which case you might get a chance to see my concealed gun in action. But make no mistake, when you’re in a fight for your life, there is no thought of “I am the police” it’s just just desperation and fear and that’s true of anyone from any background in that situation. They will try to AVOID covering it. I think its part of the social contract that when you carry the ability to cause instant death to anyone you meet that you also make a point of showing that you are their as part of the community and that your gun is their to make everyone around you safer rather than just for your own protection. You may not care about that, but I do. I was a moderately imposing guy. I’ve met so many men like you; The law in Texas is so much worse now than it was last year! 2. Many people are unable or unwilling to carry a full-size gun and gun manufacturers have addressed this market with pocket guns that in most cases are less than five inches long and weigh in at less than a pound. Firearms must be unloaded and locked in a hard-sided container and transported as checked baggage only. But this doesn’t cover everyone – would a 65 year old (regardless of sex) be able to get strong & train enough to defeat someone your age & condition in a fight? The best way to avoid a fight is to look like you can win one. We have to work on that. People just need to be exposed to it. 2) A good retention holster is essential for OC. You would be amazed how many people in a gun-friendly open carry state like Montana are not aware that open carry is legal, and not just in the technical sense, but as something that you can actually do on a day-to-day basis without being arrested. path of least resistance, For any authority, It sounds really screwed up! Arguments for/against one or the other are by far most of the time nothing more than personal preference to a given set of circumstances coupled with a LOT of hot air nonsense to “rationalize” the decision so others can validate it. 2) “Aggressive” OC as a political statement. and many, many others. 80 comments. As long as folks like OCT keep pressure, politicians will readily engage with what they see as the “reasonable” elements. I still carry my 1911 in a Serpa, Crossdraw anyway. It is the open carriers responsibility to not place themselves in a compromising position, and if the OC can’t do that then they need to conceal carry to get that herd immunity. I set aside my personal interest and Open Carry, in spite of the attention, because it’s the right thing to do. Others do not and would not acquire the skills and habits. And Dirk just loves the way she looks when she all flushed and flustered.. (Had a buddy stabbed in the back by the wife as he arrested her abuser.). Pros: The American Carry is the most comfortable. I am all for OC being legal and for OC’ing “en masse” for a designated political rally. Considering that LGBTs represent somewhere around 3-5% of the population, accomplishments have been astounding. At that point, the OC vs CC debate is the same. OC’ing puts me in the “shoot me first” category, not where I want to be. (L)” it is best to have symmetric modifiers “. It’s no big deal.” Over time, even the hysterical ones come to grips with it. In our American society where everyone is supposed to be equal and classless CCers are licensed to be better class of citizen. save. Suppose we print-up some business cards with the message: “I carried here” along with a cartoon mocking GFZs. Subconsciously, seeing a civilian OCing will become unremarkable. Meanwhile, deterrence is nearly impossible to measure because no police report gets filed when a thug decides not to commit a crime after seeing an armed citizen. It’s the world of both mixed options that yields the greatest protection to the individual and to society. If I am OC’ing, there would be problems.”. If you carry without a live round in the chamber, it increases the length of time as well as the number of actions you must perform before doing that. Something really compelling would be needed to get the media to give us coverage. Those of us who do so on a regular basis have an entirely different experience. SCOTUS won’t want to over-rule those prior cases. Situational awareness. The ones that notice at all are usually talking to me already and either just stare, ask if I’m a cop or security officer (I’m the latter, so I have that working for me), or say something along the lines of “Nice piece”. Its like we are saying, “hey, there is nothing special about that thing you worked to get” Nobody likes to be told that the special privilege they have isn’t really that special. This is one of basic laws … That is an easy question to answer. Enough people have seen me OC over the years that they explain to that one, “Oh, that’s just John. But I cannot agree with your comparison between the life of a LEO and the rest of us. But it is my belief, right or wrong, that I will see trouble coming and avoid it or God forbid, end it. But I am saying that traditionally ethical people operate in the open which is why free and open carry was much harder to ban than conceal carry. Once in a while you run into a Michael Brown type who thinks it’s a good idea to try to disarm someone. The point of getting your concealed carry permit and carrying a pistol – or having one in your home – is so you can defend yourself with it if presented with a lethal threat. #5: Exposing law enforcement’s systematic harassment of citizens contrary to law is a good thing. Animals facing a threat will instinctively show their teeth and make themselves look formidable. That doesn’t mean that winning an unavoidable fight isn’t in the list. * ‘get out the vote’, financial support, and involved candidate forum participation How does that one example apply to the millions of other gun owners as far as what they should or shouldn’t do? I was in a 7-11 a few months ago when a shifty looking character walked in. I know a bunch of people who open carry, and not a one of them is interested in irritating anyone. As defined by 49 CFR 1540.5 a loaded firearm has a live round of ammunition, or any component thereof, in the chamber or cylinder or in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Of course, personal responsibility, training, and good situational awareness are key to success in that effort. The Florida Open Carry Movement was created to support and promote the open carry of firearms in the State of Florida. It is illegal to carry a loaded long gun in a vehicle. The American Carry’s been made famous by so many WWI and WWII marching films. I see it as public aggravation. I am happy to be disagreed with. Artificial scarcity. Walk down the Main St. in Mayberry is a lot different than walking down Telegraph Ave in Oakland, Ca. With the completely rabid anti-gun progressives or the entrenched Fudd conservatives there is no solution. Right. -If me carrying a gun causes somebody to hate me, being an American Citizen not a subject, then they are exactly what I carry a gun in defense from. An 1889 North Carolina law made it a crime “for any person to point any gun or pistol at any person, either in fun or otherwise,” regardless of whether the weapon was loaded. So, what you really mean is that MA has LICENSED open carry. I do know that on several occasions I have had parents come up to me and show their kids “a real live gun” and I’ve lost track of how many people thank me for carrying or simply tell me “I like it, Nice”, The two ‘negative” encounters I have had in the last several years of OCing stand out because they where so rare. Interestingly, the POTG activists I see are from the battled-hardened LGBT community such as Pink Pistols. So you like to CC because it allows you to violate the law unnoticed. Realistically, where do you feel safer, the local gun store or the local Target? I do not presume that these ideas are the most effective or most appropriate. * outreach When a cop gets in a physical battle with someone, there is no LEO or bad guy special rules. Conversely, the constitutionality of an OC ban, particularly where CC is also Won’t-Issue, will be rather straight-forward proposition to evaluate. I didn’t get to pick it. A hand full of jack. Yes it makes for a good learning moment, but I fail to see how it can be used as the basis for telling anyone else what or how they ought or ought not to do something. OC(L) = Open Carry (licensed). Prohibiting open carry was considered a step too far, even in states that had no qualms about eliminating conceal carry. In my mind, what OC gives the Gun-Rights movement that can’t be otherwise obtained is an immunization of society to civilian guns in the public square. That we, civilians, do not actively seek out bad guys. So, is the severity of risk high? If I am CC’ing, no one would be any the wiser. I do not believe in giving any person bent on harm an even chance or any ‘fair warning’ in advance and that’s what open carry is to me. The very best “therapy” for them is to DEMONSTRATE that there is no danger from the gun itself…visible or otherwise. @gman There is no such thing as a soft target when you are engaging an armed person, unless the aggressor is in a nest with his rifle. Every weekend, open carried men act as a deterrence to the thugs down the street, and open carry is faster for drawing your weapon. Yes, anything is possible. As citizens and responsible gun owners, it is our job to avoid conflict at all times. Yeah, I know, it sounds weird, but ever since I started open carrying people are a lot nicer to me in public. Ammunition may be transported in the same hard-sided, locked case as a firearm if it has been packed as described above. The days of carrying around a real heavy metal-framed handgun are over, or are they? While I get the deterrence angle, I am more worried about determined, armed attackers. So pointing a gun at someone can get you into trouble, but how much trouble will often depend on why you were pointing the gun and at whom. If you are traveling internationally with a firearm in checked baggage, please check the U.S. Customs and Border Protection website for information and requirements prior to travel. There is the difference I was eluding to. I think you’re making a false association with Open Carry and being a Cop… Many Cops do it because they get into the job for all the wrong reasons. and they are really not that bad, They hide who and what they are and then they use the element of surprise to attack. Even if you are convinced that OC will get your gun stolen and used against you, on certain occasions (parties, protests) you should have a full-sized BBQ gun or whatever to OC unloaded, while continuing to CC your real EDC. If we can get women to open carry it’ll be the new “Coach” purse craze (except it will be more understandable to me). If you panic you may also cause the person with a gun pointed at you to panic as well. Small arms ammunition (up to .75 caliber and shotgun shells of any gauge) must be packaged in a fiber (such as cardboard), wood, plastic, or metal box specifically designed to carry ammunition and declared to your airline. Brandon’s terrible analysis, which is actually a case study in confirmation bias, leads him to believe that there is virtually never any tactical purpose or advantage to OC (other than to be a schmuck). That’s where people start to CC, when really, we should OC more. And, IMHO, OC reminds criminals and would-be tyrants that the People are armed. The apparent rationale is that the more obvious our LEOs are the more bad guys will think twice. Freedom of association is a great way to exercise the fact that some people are not your people. Maybe I am wrong. The recent announcement by Regal seems to me to be an excellent opportunity for us POTG to rally En masse. “It puts people off and often scares people. Ask yourself: How else (other than by OC) can we immunize the general public from hoplophobia? I think for the political angle, OC’ing hurts more than helps. Once I was walking my dogs OC’ing and a couple of cute little girls in the neighborhood who were out with their Dad came over and wanted to pet the dogs. the goal of virtually every criminal is to make a profit, not to get in a gunfight. "A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost!" Officers are also now 10x more aware of the laws and I have also noticed a favorable shift in their attitudes towards gun owners (on the surface, this may seem counter-intuitive given the catalyst for their training). But the probability of occurrence, even among a very high-risk subset of open carriers, is extremely low. Don’t know if that’s a reason if our experiences differ. So most of the time I was on my own. Most people don’t notice, and most people don’t care. Clarity of thought is very important. If you care to tell me the stories, email me at [email protected]. That is why situational awareness is a must. Feeling Like Everyone is Looking at You. Now imagine that there are 3 thugs, and they see you packing. Part of why the nancy boys refuse to do it is because they falsely consider some of these aspects to be negative, pretend to have an advantage, etc… They’re really just afraid of being SWATed by a liberal, don’t want the attention, etc… The real cowards lash out, calling OCers attention whores, etc… Frankly, I’d rather be invisible, but that doesn’t help. Ammunition is prohibited in carry-on baggage, but may be transported in checked baggage. Federal government websites often end in .gov or .mil. OC’ing causes problems with cops, even where OC is legal. Yet, our message would get-out to customers who observe them and to the employees tasked with picking up after us. I’m curious to what part of the state you live in, and how much attention you get. They like to strut about sticking their gun and uniform in everyone’s face, reaping a feeling of superiority. Not too long ago OC’ers standing up to exercise their rights in towns not far from me were harassed by LEO’s with a proclivity for d***-measuring contests. “1911 vs GLOCK” is not a thing for anyone who owns a Sig Sauer. The same can be said of ‘9mm/45’ and ‘Glock/1911’. He’s just being honest, it IS the main purpose of the OC crowd. Better question: Dirk – do you appendix carry or is that something else? Even other gun owners. Merely, I wish to illustrate things we can do at the scale that we are capable of mustering that will show grass-roots (vs. astro-turf) support of the 2A an reach the uncommitted voter without mediation by the MSM. The exception that proves the rule. We are apt to be of different schools-of-thought regarding the combat tactics of OC. . E.g., Licensed is Shall-Issue, May-Issue and Won’t-Issue. There are, what, 750K police officers in the USA? A 10,000 purse just reinforces that indifference, because they are made by slaves. It means that you have no constitutional right to carry, but may only do so with the government’s permission.”, #6 – open carry gets Shannon all flustered. Promotion of hunting is nice; but it communicates that civilian guns are fine in the fields. OC is legal in my state, but we have had several cases of OC’ers being harassed and even arrested. OC’ing does not allow me to go into posted “gun-free zones.” If I am CC’ing, no one would be any the wiser. what is more likely to happen a person getting struck by a ricochet off the ground or the bullet falling on them because both of those situations are dependent on the number of people in a given area and the construction of the ground. Though un-trained and un-habituated these should be able to do so in safety. If open carry makes you a ‘target’ those that would target you need to experience open season/no tag/no limit. Regardless of your reasons, all of the effects of Open Carry occur because it’s visible. One of the guys I see at the range said the he recently purchased an old BB rifle as a prop for a western-themed party. And, of course, we are all human and sometimes switch to inner space mode and lose our awareness. So, approximately 0.01% of police officers are killed each year. ~ You have a noodle for a spine and I feel sorry for you ~. – police shooting suspects in the streets on a regular basis; but, There are infinite ways things can play out, so one cannot make a blanket statement that OCers are targeted first. Only trouble makers exercise rights, This carry requires slinging the rifle behind the nonfiring shoulder, with the muzzle up. Proper holsters and training are pretty important for OC, http://bearingarms.com/man-robbed-gun-nearly-killed-philly/. Thoughtful, concise, compelling. If I had that “right” I would carry OPENLY. I fully expected it. Departments in neighboring towns, including mine, saw what happened and decided to proactively update training and implement best practices for dealing with CC and OC’ers. My OC experiences have been universally positive. Over the past seven years, 10 states have rolled back longstanding licensing, training, and registration requirements for carriers of concealed weapons under a novel legislative philosophy called “constitutional carry.”. At a minimum, I can now walk out the door with my CC, head held high, and not worry about the risk of printing (i.e. It keeps the rifle secure and is convenient for long-distance … Just get a solid retention holster (and practice your draw with an empty gun). Free Men have the right to Bear Arms. may I taste?”). Most open carry because they have no interest in participating in de facto registration, or prefer not to be treated like a criminal in order to exercise a constitutional right. d. None of the above. Forgot to cite source: “Open carry is bad pro-gun PR and will likely lead to stricter gun control.” Where is the proof of your assertion? Ankle carry is a popular carry choice for those who don’t wear a jacket and have to keep their shirt tucked in.. An unloaded gun with a … 3. A lot more than most carry. But, if it wasn’t for the obnoxious-get-over-it crowd, I doubt society at large would have ever engaged with the rational groups. First, it requires quickly motivating the PotG in a given area around a theater. Both are necessary and a good mixture is optimal in a free society. Whenever you have one modifier “. You may believe that unicorns exist but you’d be wrong. There is no negative impact on the community from someone carrying openly, minding their own business, obeying the law, and engaging in commerce or social activities. Bud, I get the feeling reading objections to OC, that so many of those making the case seem to feel a pressure to OC, if it is legal, or otherwise seem to feel threatened by it. Arkansas recently joined the ranks of full open carry states, and South Carolina had a bill working its way through the legislature that would have also allowed unlicensed open carry. Speed, allows swifter violence of action, and turning the tables on a criminal. I firmly believe that if I can open carry in a state like Massachusetts, there’s still hope for the 2A. Florida Carry supports this movement by working tirelessly to legalize, normalize, and finally deregulate the carry of unconcealed handguns by law abiding adults in Florida. Bud – My sincerest apologies. Absolutely nothing. A few OC. The laws on that violate 2A and they are unenforceable, at least in my state. The 3-point sling worked like a charm. In a world of OC or nothing, a potential criminal can easily identify hard and soft targets. All three will rush you from behind before you realize what is happening. You can justify any point of view no matter how wrong it is by finding rare examples but rational people look at how often certain things happen and don’t base their life choices on ultra rare exceptions. So it’s wise not to rub him the wrong way. In the owner’s home and property. I tend to agree more with the OC arguments. Every time I go into town OCing it’s a chance to help educate someone who may be pro-carry, but not educated about it the way most of us are. Deciding a CC challenge is brought with lots of complexities that SCOTUS would prefer to avoid. I think for the political angle, OC’ing hurts more than helps. If I were selfish, short-sighted and passive aggressive, I’d be a democrat. But since I started OCing people seem a lot more willing to talk to me, and it’s about the gun only about half the time. Ross Perot’s question is still valid: Are we just going to talk about it [gun rights] or do something about it? …you nailed it right there. Boxers or briefs? No data to support this; not sure how using fantasies to make life’s decisions is beneficial. Sometimes licensed conceal carriers murder people too but its so rare only the anti’s treat it like an important argument. Often in criminal law, why you do something matters just as much (if not more) than what you do. No group ever gained more rights by being quiet. That’s what they make Duracoat for. “The best way to avoid a fight is to not be there.”. Each year open carry is becoming more prevalent and more widespread across the United States. Traditionally, a concealed weapon meant assassins, criminals and cowards. Currently you can open carry in rural areas without issue, but as you go into the cities where there’s more crime and more hoplophobes, that’s where you start to have more problems. Carrying a gun for any other … We gotta desensitize people to seeing guns. Now, while it still makes a lot of people uneasy, we know there’s nothing we can do about it so we move on. The article’s point hits that hard – having a mix of OC and CC reminds criminals that there are people carrying, and that they can’t distinguish between target types. Licenses put police officers at ease. There are plenty of arguments online about how lightweight handguns are the best and there are valid points for that, but metal-framed guns have their advantages. Will the press cover it? I know that’s not what you said, but it is pointed in that direction…. Quite a few people take it as an article of faith that OCers are a first target. “I feel more a part of my community than I ever did before.” What, I’m supposed to believe you can’t feel a part of your community unless you show everyone you’re carrying a firearm? While I don’t disagree with the general sentiments of the tactical advantages of CC, OC feels like what I need to do once in a while to help win the culture war against guns. I am happy to be disagreed with. Contact the TSA Contact Center with questions you have regarding TSA firearm regulations and for clarification on what you may or may not transport in your carry-on or checked baggage. . The great thing about open carry is that its not just a deterrent, its also a weapon for the people who are too stupid to avoid a gunfight. If someone does not want to OC because they BELIEVE they will be targeted first, that’s their own look-out. But if you read closely you can clearly pick up on the under-current of hostility towards OC that seems to pervade much of the shooting sports and self defense world (I should mention that I don’t think that Brandon was doing this consciously).